Official Luthiers Forum!

...clients try to take advantage of you.

A website I'm doing is supposed to be completed next friday. Today I got
an email saying they'd like to think about incorporating more multimedia
type things. Videos, mp3's, etc. All of which I'd also make. I responded
by saying that I believe in participation and encourage it, but that those
things would need to wait until we completed the current site out of
fairness to me. The response I got was that it was their perrogative to
include those things.

I'm 24, giving, soft spoken, but I'm not stupid.

I picked up the phone and firmly but kindly explained that I was
commissioned to build the site we both signed off on. The one I
presented, quoted, and agreed to have finalized by our deadline; and that
it was more abusive than professional to ask me to add to it for free, and
within a week.

This has happened with every website I've done professionally.      James Orr38834.8309259259

Good for you, James! Standing up for principals, that is.

I've run into that sort of thing for years, doing technical projects. It's been happening with me for over 30 years. I guess it comes with the territory. My nephew, a high-end contractor, tears his hair out on almost every job because of arbitrary changes that his clients want at the last minute. I'm sure you'll find empathy among other folks here!

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Welcome to the real world.

We feel your pain.

Not much any of us can say, but "Way to go."

You can't let the customer add work without adding compensation.

Then again, long term relationships depend on communication and you did that, now the ball is in their park.

You want your product to meet their needs. Plus you want referrals to future customers, it's a tightrope.

Sorry for the hassle, it's your time and your money when they start piling on freebies.

Let us know how it turns out. I've built websites for others but it was gratis and low tech for sure. Good luck.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Thanks guys. I very much needed to vent :)

Hesh, my contract is EXTREMELY specific about the work I'm being
commission to do :D

My wife ran into the same sort of problems when she was designing websites for hire. Now she does it for fun and for volunteer work (National Institute of health) She could probably do quite well as a business, but She prefers the way She is doing it now. If anyone is interested her work can be seen at:
Pheochromocytoma support site
Chatallica
Johnston City Gazette
Anyway You definately did the right thing by sticking to your guns. Customers can be difficult.

Al

I understand exactly what you are talking about as I have been in similar situations. You have contractual obligations that apply to your work and your ability to provide a quality product in a timely manner. If you contract is not written to allow modification which include time and payment then by all means stick to your guns. I do all the in-house programming at my job and I can’t tell you how many times I have a program just about complete and someone gets a brilliant idea and wants modifications. Most people don’t understand what a few small changes can do to computer programming. The resulting new content can sometimes double the amount of time required to complete. But since it is my work is in-house only continual updating and reprogramming is the way to go to remain flexible in our ever-changing environment.

Best Wishes,

Philip

_________________
aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

I would offer them the option of signing a supplemental contract that agrees to the modifications being made with additional fees and an extended time period.

Since the additional work is beyond the scope of your original contract, there is no reason not to charge additional fees based on the amount of extra work and time on the project.

The problem with website development is that it can be a process that evolves beyond the original scope or concept. Because of this, your contract should be based on a minimum base fee for initial design, and hours billed additionally for discretionary changes.

Always do what you can to make the customer happy and you will have happy customers which translate into repeat customers. If ou lock yourself into a rigid product development, you're bound to have issues like this. Be flexible, but stand up for yourself and get paid for the additional work.
Don Williams38834.8812152778

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I have owned internet professional services companies for the last 13 years. This happens to us all the time. What I have done is to put major check points in the process, architecture design & wireframes, creative design, and final qa. I spell out in the up front agreement the "impact" of adding new features or changing your mind once critical milestones are hit (let's just say they are punitive).

I also ask for 50% of the project at signing, 25% upon presentation of the creative and the final 25% at the end. (You want to make sure they have as much skin in the game as you do. Otherwise they will drive you bonkers with changes.)

This almost always gives you the leverage you need to keep the client focused on the goal and then you can hold everything else off to "phase II development"

I am very nice about changes... after all I am in the business of saying "yes", but these can derail a project and I make the cost of these changes high enough that they only ask for deviations that are REALLY important to them.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

...and THAT Brock, is why you are successful at it.

Wisdom speaks, let those with an ear to hear listen closely!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

James,

I think the guys here give good advice. I used to hire contractors to do work all the time. It is not uncommon for project specs to change, afterall, you even said this has happened to every website you have designed. The key is what Brock and Don said, write a provision in your contract to handle these circumstances, then there will be no awkward phone calls, and everybody can be happy.

Keep your chin up!

John

Brock, that's an extremely good idea. Great advice, thank you. I tend to
specialize in flash, with EVERYTHING being dynamic and database driven.
Even colors. One change and BAM. Time to redo 24 tables (on this one).

James, i want to congratulate you for standing up against a lack of consciousness and and an act of non-respect from this customer, the hardest part when we're young is to learn to say no at the right time but i see that you know your limits and it's a great thing that'll help you in your future. The advices you received here are also a reflect of your personality, it shows that you have a bunch of big brothers, ready to support you through no matter what and who will always respect you like you give respect to everyone here.

I'm proud to be an OLFer!!! After reading this my friend, you can also be proud!

Serge

Thanks, Serge!

Hey guys, I heard some of you play for free at church. Well, I'm having
this fund raiser out of town and thought it'd be great for some of you to
come play gratis.

[QUOTE=James Orr]it'd be great for some of you to
come play gratis. [/QUOTE]
I've never played a gratis. Can I get some free lessons?

      James! You Lazy SOB! These people put food on your table and you can't type in just a few more strokes on a qwerty? What kind of work do you do, and is it worth anything? Geesh!

Sound familiar? The voice of innuendo, implication, tacit demeaning. We've heard it before! In business, some people react just like they do in there families "get'em if you can"! Show's what their worlds are like.

    The words, "I'll see what I can do, if I can get to it in time...", come to mind. Deliver what was contracted for. Then for changes there's a whole new contract, this time with a little extra for the irritation factor.

    They usually come around that you're not stupid, and not easily pushed or aggitated, at least, not without a price.

Believe me, I feel yo pain, my broth-ah! Believe me!

Thanks very much for bringing this to us for advice, Please tell your friends!

Billy Dean

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

In the mechanical building world I use to work in, there were always "change orders"

Create a change order form, detailing what the customer wants to change/add to the order.
Next, you can add to the order form what the cost of this change/addition will be and the time frame it will set you back (give a new completion date, reflective of the addition/change).

Have both you and the customer sign off on the change order (literally, add a line for the customer and you to sign your signature) and your good to go. You've covered your butt and your customer knows exactly how the change effects the project.

Like Brock said, you always want to say yes, just make sure they know what that "Yes" entales.

The other thing that a change order form will do is eliminate the "friendly" factor in a project. Not that you can't be nice about changes, this is just a simple way to keep it buisiness like and no nonchalant "could we just do this" requests.

And than there is a record of what the customer has "signed off on" and they know exactly what to expect and you have a document that they signed when they start to say "this project was to be done on xxxxxx day" you can pull out the change order and remind them of what they agreed to. Their signature is right there.

Oh, make sure they sign before you do. Rod True38835.1172222222

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Oh, this is also a good idea for guitar making eh?

I would think that customers tend to send emails saying, "I would like to add xxxxxx"

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Hi James

You are right this can ba a tricky situation, it is important to find a balance so the client feels you are responsive and helpful, but at the same time that you are properly paid for the project, having spent some time on both sides of the table, Brocks advise sounds very sound to me, put in front of someone what a change is going to cost, and the impact in has on timescales and they can make a clear decision on it, and if they wish to go for it. In this situation if somone said to me it can't be done I would simply think they were inflexible, say to me it can be done but it will cost you several thousand dollars because, then I would evaluate if it was worth it, and think I've got some one who is doing their best to accomodate me but my request may not be worth the impact or the cost.

Rod you are right this does of course come up with guitars, on my guitar orders I work in a very custom manner, I try to be as fair as posible so for example if i having just bound your guitar in Koa and you want to change to BRW I'm going to charge for material and the time taken to remove and replace, I'll tell the customer up front and let them make the decision, however in this same scenario if the change was made before binding, I will just charge any difference in the materials, unless of course I have specially sourced something that I can't use again or sell. A lot of customers have waited a long time to own a custom made instrument and they of course want it to be just right.

In fairness I have to say all the customers I have dealt with thus far have been great, they respect your work and don't expect something for nothing,most musicians are in my opinion some of the nicest people around.

[QUOTE=Rod True] Oh, this is also a good idea for guitar making eh?

I would think that customers tend to send emails saying, "I would like to add xxxxxx"[/QUOTE]

Happens to me frequently. My main (guitar) biz focus is on solid body stocks and not so much acoustics. I do custom neck blanks and full project custom milling. Many times after establishing the base material to mill from according to the client's specs and providing a price quote for each piece or blank a customer will come back and say, I redesigned the bass plans and please add 3" to the neck length or I miscalculated the specs, can you add 1" to the body size? Or...."instead of 1/4" thick 11A quilt maple top will you make it 1/2" thick instead"? All expected for the same price quote mind you.